YH: In 2011 you published a study called “Who Takes the Floor and Why.” One of the conclusions that you suggest could be drawn from your research is that powerful men should make an effort to display their power whereas women should do the opposite. Would you consider that to be advice or should women put themselves out there more as a way of fighting the status quo?
Brescoll: People with power and status tend to talk a lot more than people who don’t have power and status—people interpreted that as this human universality, but I had a lot of reason to believe that that wasn’t true. I used to work for the Senate under Hillary Clinton, and it was something I noticed over and over again: power did not function the same for men and women.
I did a correlational study with the United States Senate over a period of a couple years. Even with regular women, when you give them more power, they don’t talk more. What I tried to argue and show with my data was that women know, when they get a lot of power, that they can’t display that kind of dominance. And so that last experiment shows that yes, you will encounter backlash.
Sometimes I feel uncomfortable giving women one-size-fits-all advice just because the context is going to change so much. It’s really up to individual women to ask, “Does this make sense in my situation and my context, and with my personality too?” Some people are not going to be as good at leaning in; some people will be great. But I think there’s a really important goal for her. I think having people focused on that is super valuable.
YH: In an op-ed piece that you co-authored in the New York Times, “Women as Bosses Still Face Bias,” you point out how Lynn Tilton, the female chief executive of Patriarch Partners, was harshly treated by female reporters. Why would there be this lack of solidarity among women?
Brescoll: My research shows that men and women tend to hold the same stereotypes, so they basically react in the same way to women who violate stereotypes. The separate issue is, when we’re behaving in a way in public—you’re a female reporter and you’re viewing a woman that’s in some way violating gender roles—we wonder: why can’t we get over the fact that we know that this is not a fair thing to do? I do not believe that if and when women, in this case women reporters, engage in this sort of behavior they have any idea of what they’re doing. It’s not intentional and it’s not conscious.
We define ourselves according to who we’re around. Given that we define ourselves by our differences in individual interactions, it’s probably the case that a female dealing with Lynn Tilton may even identify as feminist, and she still is like, “That woman is a harsh boss. I am a nice person.” There’s other ways that she probably defines her or categorizes her.
YH: To what extent does the sexual harassment case at the Yale School of Medicine fit in with your own research?
Brescoll: My adviser in graduate school was actually Peter Salovey, the president of Yale. And I know Peter; he’s a great guy who is totally committed to gender equality. These administrative situations are extremely complex. No matter what, none of us knows what happened from anyone’s perspective. We just know what we’re told. And so it’s irresponsible for me to say anything just based on what I read about it. I know I hate sexual harassment and I don’t want anyone to be hurt, but I also know that I don’t understand this situation.
YH: Do you think these cases of sexual harassment are common because of that power dynamic, where women are perceived—or feel themselves—as having less power?
Brescoll: Women historically end up being subject to sexual harassment more than men because they tend to have less power. And the nature of heterosexual relationships is that men are the pursuer more so than women are, so it’s less common even when a woman has power over a man that she would do that. And then there’s the other type of sexual harassment, gender harassment.
YH: How do you feel about the fact that official responses to the case have generally been by men, just because the administration is mostly made of men?
Brescoll: I know why Provost Polak and President Salovey have their jobs, and they certainly deserve them. There’s an effect called the glass cliff effect. So when there’s a crisis, and, I would argue, particularly when that corporate or organization or university crisis has a moral or right-or-wrong component, organizations and corporations will overwhelmingly choose women to lead. Not that anyone would take Peter out, but you could see why it would be beneficial to have a woman responding. She might know a little more about sexual harassment, or people would assume she’s more sensitive to it or has experience with it. It’s exactly like with Mary Barra, who is the CEO of GM. She’s in front of Congress testifying about the loss of life because of some of the errors that they made and the media latched onto the fact she was a woman. And I think for good reason, because people’s instinct is to think, “Finally, someone who cares a little more.” It’s because we assume that they understand that perspective. And especially with sexual harassment that effect is probably heightened, because women are the most likely to be victims of sexual harassment.
YH: Do you think it’s problematic that the administration has so few women?
Brescoll: Is it problematic? There are two ways of framing that question: currently, is it a problem for Yale? And is this a problematic thing, that there’s not enough diversity in these positions in the first place? It would be great if there were more diversity. But I think they’re doing just fine. Would it help their image? I imagine it probably would.
YH: You teach two courses here. How does your research impact the way you teach your classes? Do you teach differently if there’s a different gender ratio in your class?
Brescoll: No, I don’t usually. And it’s never different. SOM is usually about 60 to 65 percent men; in that sense since the ratio is always the same and always has been the same. Here’s what I do: I am very much aware of some of the challenges that women face based on stereotypes, and I’m also aware of what happens in group and team dynamics that have to do with gender. I try to bring that awareness to the way I teach. In other words, I do not specifically bring up gender or talk about gender. If students ask, I will answer questions. I specifically don’t mention gender because I don’t think that’s an effective way for people to learn and get better in that context. And since we all hold biases and we’re all subject to them, it’s relevant to everyone. It’s not like you need to teach in a different way or even bring it up.
YH: You said earlier that you are a feminist; how do you define that for yourself?
Brescoll: It’s changed over time. Probably the same thing that people say all the time, which is that I believe that women should have the same opportunities as men. I believe in basic fairness, essentially.
—Interview condensed by the author