Can of Worms — Episode 2: D&D-Stravanganza!

Posted on February 17, 2023

In the second episode of Can of Worms, Cambria and Oliver will discuss the cultural phenomenon that is the tabletop roleplaying game called Dungeons and Dragons! Together we will explore the history of where it began, including how it gained some disreputable press in its early years along with the social unrest that came with satanic panic in the 1970s and 80s. We conduct interviews from local spots and players and discover, from basements to bravado, how D&D came to be what it is today (along with new editions and other roleplaying games that it inspired). We even interviewed our very own Cael Roberts on his recent story about D&D community here at the U. What, exactly, caused the sudden rise in popularity, and why do so many people care about it? On top of that, we will look at some of the great places here in Salt Lake City where people can get resources and join a game of their own like The Legendarium, Game Night Games, Oasis Games, Hastur Games, and the University of Utah’s very own D&D club! Join us!

Cambria

Hello, hello and welcome to episode two of Can of Worms, the show where we every episode we open a can of worms and talk about some interesting stuff you might like to hear. I’m Cambria!

Ollie

And I’m Oliver. How’s your day? How have you been?

Cambria

Pretty good. I have been getting super reasonable amounts asleep. And waking up at super reasonable times.

Ollie

What does that mean?

Cambria

It means the opposite. I’ve been like staying up till like three doing everything and also nothing. But it’s alright because I didn’t have classes today except for this.

Ollie

Oh, nice.

Cambria

So, you know got a little easy morning.

Ollie

Yeah, neither did I.

Cambria

My dog fell up my stairs.

Ollie

So, I’m guessing they ran super-fast up the stairs?

Cambria

So, you guys don’t know this because you’ve never been in my house, but I live in the attic of my house that’s been like turned into like a loft kind of thing. It’s kind of fun. I don’t have a door. Because my room also goes down into my mom’s room. We’re roommates. It’s very cool. There’s a lot with the family dynamic. Don’t worry about it. But because of that, I have stairs, quote unquote, “stairs” for my room, but it’s classified as a ladder because it’s so steep. And my dog, he’s able to climb up the stairs, but he can’t get down them because they’re too steep for him to go down. But he’ll climb up them. And so I hear him — there’s a vacuum cleaner going on in my house this morning. And I heard it. And he does not like vacuum cleaners as most dogs don’t. And I heard him like clacking around, being afraid. And I said “Copper, come on up my stairs,” as I do. Like this is a common occurrence. And so I hear the click-click-click-click and then I hear cluck-cluck-cluck-cluck. I had to then carry him up the rest of the way. And now he’s fine.

Ollie

Okay.

Cambria

So now that you know about my dog, I thought we’d talk about a little thing called Dungeons and Dragons. And for those who don’t know, Dungeons and Dragons is a tabletop role playing game, or a RPG. That’s a term that we will use throughout the episode. Basically, it’s based around like dice and collaboration, so a group of people sitting around a table telling a story, like creating a narrative together. Are you familiar with it?

Ollie

I’m somewhat familiar.

Cambria

Yeah.

Ollie

I’ve done like, one night of D&D at my uncle’s house. And I was a gnome, I believe named Oryx. And I’m trying to remember exactly what we did. There was like a pyramid involved, and some magic, but that’s the extent. How familiar are you?

Cambria

I’m really familiar. I’m very familiar. I run a game with my brother and our friends or, I ran a game for a while. Recently it came to an end.

Ollie

Oh no.

Cambria

Well, it came to an end in a good way. Our campaign came to a storyline that’s closed, which usually doesn’t happen. Usually campaigns just end because we just stop playing but luckily it was because the story came together. And now we’re gearing up to start a new campaign that’s actually like 1000s of years later after this. Time has passed. So, it was a little prequel series for that one that. So, it was really fun.

Ollie

Some new character sheets?

Cambria

New character sheets, new world that they ended up helping build. So, it was a good time. Anyway, so what I really wanted to like look at for this episode is like, how D&D got to what it is today, what the scene is here, specifically, in like Utah, in Salt Lake, why people care so much. And so, I did some digging. Do you know, like, where it all started?

Ollie

The whole D&D universe?

Cambria

Yeah, do you know the beginning of D&D?

Ollie

No, I’m ready to learn.

Cambria

I found that everyone I asked either they know exactly the names and the date, or they don’t know anything at all.

Ollie

I would say I don’t know anything at all.

Cambria

I also didn’t know anything at all, because I’m definitely one of the like yeah, I like this game. Very cool. I don’t need to know its history. Who needs history the of it? Anyway, I found out the history. Basically, once upon a time, there were two guys, one called Gary Gygax. Yes, that’s a real name. And Dave Arneson, who envisioned a game that revolved completely around rolling dice, and like theater of the mind, rather than a classic board game. And this very first edition was published in 1974. So, you know, like a relatively new game. It’s been around for like a while, but not like a whole long time. Not as long as like other games have been classically. And so, there’s a lot of like publishing stuff. So, the first company that published it was called Tactical Studies Rules, which is really flows off the tongue. And that was a company that this guy Gary Gygax, like co-founded in order to publish D&D. He wanted it to be published. And so he made a company and the company went through some like rough patches with ownership publishing and like bankruptcy until it was sold to Wizards of the Coast in 1997. And Wizards of the Coast is owned by Hasbro. And they still own it today. So basically, that’s a little publishing history that no one really cares about. But I thought it was kind of neat how many iterations it went through.

Ollie

Yeah.

Cambria

All those logistics aside, the first iteration was like super bare bones, like I bet even what you’ve played was like, more complicated, and more thorough than that the very first iteration of it. So, there was three like character class options of like what you could do a fighter, a mage and a healer. So, like stabby stabby, you cast magic or you heal people. It’s very straightforward. And there’s like four-character race options. You could be a human, you could be a dwarf, you could be elf, and you could be halfling.

Ollie

Okay.

Cambria

But that was it. That was like, basically the whole thing.

Ollie

So a race is kind of, like, the type of character and then a class is like your job?

Cambria

Yeah. Race is what your character is, and class is what your character does.

Ollie

Okay. Okay.

Cambria

So if you’re a human fighter, you’re just some guy who is really good with a sword. Or if you’re a dwarf, you know, classic, like, Tolkien, like, fantasy dwarf, kind of like all of these, like very basic, like high fantasy stuff. And then yeah, so you could either be a fighter, you could either be a mage, or you could be a healer in any combination.

Ollie

Okay.

Cambria

But still, the entire thing was like, fully surrounded by dice. That’s the one thing that has persisted all the way through. Just like pretty basic, all around, like any first draft was because they’re just trying to get their main idea out of there. And along with the bumps that came with the first draft, like I said, with like Tolkien, there was some Lord of the Rings backlash.

Ollie

Oh, no.

Cambria

Oh, yeah, there was some drama, because a lot of the terminology of the game were words that Lord of the Rings had, like coined in their movies, right? The most notable being hobbits. Halflings, like I mentioned before, they used to be called hobbits.

Ollie

What about orcs?

Cambria

Orcs was one of the lists wasn’t one on the list. But yeah.

Ollie

Did Tolkein invent orcs?

Elle

No.

Cambria

No, no, no, no. These are lots of like classic fantasy stuff that. So, Lord of the Rings, like did backlash for some of these terminologies. The only ones that they were able to actually win, like, win over and had forced like it to change in D&D, were hobbits, which turned into halflings, ents or like the big tree people which turned into treants — however you want to say it.

Elle

They really put tree in front of it.

Ollie

You can be a treant in Dungeons and Dragons?

Cambria

Yes, if you are playing that kind of game, but also, it’s more like a monster that you’ll face. Or you just face a big tree guy.

Ollie

That’s cool.

Cambria

But it depends on your DM. I would for sure run a game where you’re all just giant trees.

Ollie

I would love that.

Cambria

I think that’d be a fun time.

Thea

What’s a DM?

Cambria

Oh, thank you executive producer Thea. Yeah, so a DM is the Dungeon Master or person who runs the game also known as like the Game Master. Basically, the person who is in charge.

Ollie

So that’s what you usually are?

Cambria

That’s what I usually am.

Ollie

Do you care that you’re never playing characters?

Cambria

I started playing as a character. Like my first time was with like, my family. My dad ran the game. And then the second that I figured out, like, oh, I can do whatever I want with this, I was like, I have a story idea. And so that was my first and I’ve never really gone back since.

Ollie

Okay, yeah.

Cambria

I do have lots of character ideas that I’ll never get to play. But well, maybe one day it’ll happen. Anyway, the last one that they had to change was the Balrog. So if you don’t know, in Lord of the Rings, The Balrog is the guy that Gandalf fights, he’s like “you shall not pass.” You know that big guy? Yeah, that big demon monster. That guy was turned into Bylor, which just another kind of like, demon in the game, you know. So those were the three that they had to change due to Lord of the Rings being like, Hey, don’t do that. That’s our thing. And so now it’s halflings and treants and Balor, and that was that. That was the whole thing.

Sword Sound

Cambria

But if we’re talking about the history, we simply like we cannot talk about it without mentioning a little bit of Satanic Panic. Are you like, are you familiar?

Ollie

I’m not familiar with Satanic Panic.

Cambria

Um, so as the name suggests, it was like this moral panic that people had about like Satanic and devil rituals in the 70s and 80s. Basically, the belief that cultist and evil were looking about trying to like learn people to the devil and do evil acts, you know.

Ollie

Okay, so how does this have to do with D&D?

Cambria

Well, I’m so glad you asked. Because these ideas were more often like perpetuated by like Christian denominations, particularly like fundamental Christians, who played a large part in fostering the fear rallies that were happenings. But the reason that it’s connected to D&D is actually a fun like little roller coaster ride, which I’ll tell you. Like D&D is not the cause of this phenomenon at all. In fact, the way that this is connected to the history of D&D is that it’s not at all to do with D&D. Really, D&D got like swept up in this moral panic as like a focus or like something to blame. So, like what really egged it on, the Satanic Panic, was the sudden rise in serial killers in the 70s and 80s.

Ollie

So that’s what started it?

Cambria

Yeah. Like serial killers started like popping up more and more.

Ollie

I wonder why in the 70s.

Cambria

There’s a lot of theories about that, but that’s for another episode. But specifically serial killers who specialized in like hiding in the shadows and like blending in among a crowd.

Ollie

Is this D&D or serial killers?

Cambria

That’s a serial killer thing.

Ollie

Okay.

Cambria

Um, and it wasn’t necessarily that the serial killers alone, but it was also the way that they’re being like broadcast. Suddenly, people were getting all of this news of all these different serial killers all across the US from everywhere else. So, everyone was seeing all these things happen. And, you know, the news loves a serial killer, because that’s just good publicity. Oh my goodness. And so, people were seeing all these things and it was all over the place. And so, it like really put into challenge this like, beautiful white picket American life where everyone’s like, Oh, no, murder is bad. I can’t believe all of this is happening.

Ollie

It must be the D&D.

Cambria

It must be the D&D. Exactly. Because like, you know, people were just looking for something to blame, but this was also happening here in Utah. Are you familiar with a guy named Ted Bundy?

Ollie

Oh, yes.

Cambria

Yeah, so he was among many others, like right there in like the crux of it all, with all of that innocent charm and murder, which is bad.

Ollie

I guess a girl at the high school I went to got abducted by Ted Bundy in like the 70s.

Cambria

I’m sorry, what?

Ollie

Not that I went to high school with, but they went to the same high school.

Cambria

Oh, I was like, are you immortal?

Elle

Their parents or like her? I’m still confused.

Ollie

No I just know that there was a girl that went to the same high school as me.

Cambria

Oh, so you don’t know this person, you just went to the same high school?

Ollie

I just went to the same high school. That’s not a claim to fame. But I am aware of Ted Bundy. And yeah, I guess he went to law school here, too.

Elle

He did.

Ollie

And there’s a place up Immigration canyon that people say like, this is where Ted Bundy took people. We went on a full moon night at like one in the morning.

Cambria

Did you get murdered?

Ollie

No, but it’s scary. Like you go into this little basement you’re like is this really….

Cambria

That’s messed up.

Ollie

Yeah.

Cambria

Murderers is bad you guys. Don’t do that. Super messed up. Not a fan. He was obviously the most popular one, especially here in Utah. Infamous is the better word, but like what most well-known, like if you say the word Ted Bundy people know who you’re talking about.

Ollie

Yeah. Zac Efron.

Elle

Honestly, his portrayal was kind of mid I’m not going to lie. I watched that movie.

Cambria

Hot take by producer.

Elle

That movie was mid.

Cambria

I didn’t watch that movie so honestly, I don’t have an opinion.

Ollie

What was the other one? Was there another one?

Thea

High School Musical?

Ollie

No! Another Ted Bundy movie. I guess there was the Ted Bundy Tapes.

Elle

That was a documentary though.

Ollie

Yeah, that was good.

Elle

Yeah, it was good. I watched that.

Cambria

So along with him here in Utah was the case of Joyce Yost, whose remains are like still missing because of this really just horrible person named Douglas Lovell from like South Ogden. So, all these bad things are happening. And also, Mark Hofmann. Do you know anything about Mark Hofmann?

Ollie

I watched the beginning of that documentary on Netflix, but I got bored. But yeah, like the forgeries.

Cambria

Yeah, forgeries.

Ollie

There was an explosion.

Elle

Yeah, bombings and murders like within the LDS church.

Ollie

So all of this is Satanic Panic in Utah?

Cambria

Yes. So not like them doing this is like satanic rituals, not necessarily. But all of this was happening and so all of this civil unrest and uncertainty in like people’s lives, like they were looking for like something in anything to like put blame on this like, why is all of this stuff like to them suddenly popping up at suddenly happening? Because now we know about it, because, you know, it’s being broadcast. There’s news, you live in these places. And so, they’re looking for this thing to blame. And what was conveniently there was a brand-new game that involves demons, witchcraft, rituals, and magic, you know, so Dungeons and Dragons. People like to blame like new and unfamiliar things like when the radio came on, everyone was like, Oh, don’t listen to that radio it will melt your brain. And then TV happened. Don’t listen to TV too much it will melt your brain. You know, it’s just new things that people like to blame.

Ollie

The dice we’re controlling them.

Cambria

The dice are the devil. Yeah, exactly.

Ollie

The dice are the devil.

Cambria

The devil’s in the details and the details in the dice. It also didn’t help that along with some of this unrest, there were other things that happened with like, people who did murders like “satanic rituals,” quote, unquote, who also happened to play the game or like had connection to this and so people took those very few cases and decided to like, oh, that’s the reason why. Not everyone of course was like, hey, this is an evil bad game. But lots of people were like, I’m not sure I want my children to be messing with all that because it seems to be posturing like this evil thing and you’re like fighting demons and stuff. And so, there’s a lot there’s a lot there.

Ollie

Roleplaying?

Cambria

Yes, exactly. Roleplaying, improv, dice, what is this? So D&D did not cause it at all, but it got swept up in the wave that created like all of this misconception about it. If you’ve played you know that are untrue, like you’re not doing devil worship. You’re just rolling dice and having a good time. We’re going back to Wizards of the Coast, who of course own the publishing rights to D&D.

Ollie

Which is Hasbro?

Cambria

Which are owned by Hasbro. Wizards of the Coast is like a sub sect within it.

Ollie

Is that a candy company too?

Elle

That’s no it’s a toy company.

Cambria

Haribo!

Ollie

Haribo. Do they sell a bag of just the Cokes?

Elle

Yes.

Ollie

Oh, yeah. Those are good. Okay, so Hasbro is the toy company.

Cambria

It’s like the parent company. And then within them is Wizards of the Coast.

Ollie

Which is all D&D?

Cambria

Which is like game systems. So, they don’t only publish D&D, they also do like Magic the Gathering and all sorts of other systems. But that’s not what this episode is about. So basically, they started doing what they were meant to do, which is publishing the game. And in 2000, they released what was called Dungeons and Dragons third edition, which started to incorporate some of like, the more familiar like gameplay mechanics and aspects that we know today. And then in 2012, they started playtesting the fifth edition, which is like they’re sending it out to people and then giving it and then they finally like, actually officially released in 2014. And that’s the most current edition that we have today of just like classic Dungeons and Dragons is fifth edition. Which isn’t to say that, like, if you play any of the other ones it’s bad for any reason. It’s just different versions of the game. So, there are lots of people who play third edition instead of original. Yeah, it’s really just like, the kind of gameplay that you like.

Ollie

I want to be that kind of person that only plays the third edition. The next time I come to a D&D game I’m going to be like oooh, I’m not a fifth edition guy.

Cambria

You’re cooler because you have —

Ollie

— different rules.

Ollie

We’re back. We’re in 2023. It’s 2023 and we’re playing the fifth edition of D&D.

Cambria

So true. Anyway, so everyone has chilled out. And it’s gotten way more popular, because like, in fact, like most people are either, familiar with the game or have played or know somebody who has played.

Ollie

Or Stranger Things.

Cambria

Or know that Stranger Things exist. And they watched that and said, Wow, that’s Dungeons and Dragons. So like, people recognize what the game is. So, one thing I want to talk about was, why this happened? Well, and one thing, you know, people embody what they see, you know, monkey see monkey do. And D&D made it into like, this wide range of popular media, like Stranger Things, like you just said, which, you know, being so incredibly popular, everyone’s like, wow, that’s cool. I want to do that. All the main characters are playing. They’re all rolling dice. And people are like, that looks so neat. I want to do that. And it was such a phenomenon that suddenly like an incredibly huge audience that would usually get access to like, D&D through other means was like, Oh, maybe I want to check that out. And I was able to interview one of the news writers here at The Daily Utah Chronicle about his experience with D&D.

Cael Roberts

My name is Cael Roberts. I’m A News Writer with The Daily Utah Chronicle. I actually, I started playing D&D originally because of Stranger Things. I think I like it a little too much. Play D&D, it’s cool.

Cambria

And beyond just television, people began streaming their D&D games online, the most popular of which being Critical Role. Have you ever heard of Critical Role?

Ollie

Is it a YouTube channel?

Cambria

It’s a YouTube channel and it also a Twitch channel. And it’s the most successful, like ever popular streaming D&D game in the world. Like, just full stop, they make a lot of money. It’s the most popular.

Ollie

Do they have celebrities come on?

Cambria

They do. There are a group of voice actors who do it and they occasionally have other voice actors on. So, if you are familiar with like, voice actors, and all the characters that they voice, if you go on and listen to them, and you’ve like, seen some of their work, you’re like, Oh, I know who these people are. It’s actually kind of fun.

Ollie

Oh, cool. Are you familiar with lots of voice actors?

Cambria

I am because I watch Critical Role.

Ollie

Okay, cool.

Cambria

And voice acting is a very fascinating thing that I’m very interested in. So usually, most times if I’m watching some sort of like medium, there’s voice actors involved, like video games, or animation. I’m like, who’s voicing these people? Critical Role started streaming in 2015.

Ollie

Okay.

Cambria

So, this is like right after fifth edition was being released. And they start like streaming on Twitch like it started, live streaming in 2015. And now they have gone on to create like, their own animated series based off of their first campaign. And like on their server right now there’s like 1000s of hours of content.

Ollie

Only the third campaign?

Cambria

Only with their third campaign. So, like their first campaign had 115 episodes, each of which ranged from three to six hours long. Like it’s a ton of content. D&D games just take that long. And so because they are voice actors, and they care about their storytelling they have like a very well built world and they have characters that have arcs and they like romance each other. They have like story arcs and individual stuff. They all play like it’s really, really interesting and cool. And so, because all of these really talented people were playing on this game, their popularity like suddenly skyrocketed, like fully. Especially with their animated series that has just come out like they have funded their own animated series based on their first campaign. It creates this whole new range of audience that then brings in more people who have now access to all of this stuff. So again, like it’s bringing, like all of these people into the fold. And we also talked to some of our local University of Utah D&D players.

Preston

My name is Preston, I am the president of the D&D and stuff club here at the U and community director of Crimson Gaming.

Evan

And I’m Evan, I’m the vice president of the Dungeons and Dragons and stuff club here at the university.

Cambria

So Preston talked about how Critical Role was one of the first D&D experiences he had, and it made him want to play the game on his own which is, you know, a popular phenomenon especially with you know, Critical Role being what it is.

Preston

When I, like many of us do get our wisdom teeth removed at some point, I was just incapacitated for an extended period of time, YouTube recommended Critical Role to me. So then I started watching that, I was like, No, this is too long, but when I was incapacitated, then I was like, I need something to do for hours on end. And then I just started watching Critical Role and it’s just been on ever since. Something about the stories that people are telling in Acquisitions Incorporated and in Critical Role just drew me in and I wanted to have that inner player experience and kind of foster that magic circle in a way.

Cambria

Critical Role is far from like, the only one. Dimension 20 is another one High Rollers, Dungeons and Daddies, The Adventure Zone and like there’s many of these. It’s all just different people telling a bunch of stories.

Ollie

What’s Dungeons and Daddies like?

Cambria

Pretty good. I’ve heard that it’s very good. I have not listened to that one myself.

Ollie

Is it like a podcast?

Cambria

So usually, it is in podcast form. But it’s also streaming. You can watch them all on your little screen. But yeah, there’s all sorts of like, streamed D&D content out there. And it’s stuff like this that makes people like one aware and two interested in it.

Ollie

Is it a hard thing to get into? You know?

Cambria

if you’re getting into just watching that can be. Like if you’re watching Critical Role one episode is like three hours. So, you know, that can be hard to get into unless you have time to spare time or if you like listening to stuff while you’re doing other stuff. But the next step is up to people like not everyone who listens wants to play and not everyone wants to. Like D&D is not everyone’s game, just like all games, not everyone’s going to enjoy it. But I think everyone should try it out at least once because I think it’s a great time. Anyway, with all of this talk of popularity, you would think that there’ll be like tons of places and people like to go to get resources and start playing on their own. And there are!

Ollie

Whaaaattttt?

Cambria

Surprise! One fun fact that I found while doing research on this is like, did you know that Utah is actually the state in the US where D&D is the most played?

Ollie

Really?

Cambria

Yeah. I was like, wow, what a convenient fun fact.

Ollie

How did you find that out?

Cambria

I googled it. I said, this is a fun fact, that might be cool, and it was Utah. Anyway, let’s talk about all the places we found. So one of the coolest places, is called The Legendarium, which is a place that we went and visited and we’re able to talk to the owner. And it’s just basically this local spot and a small business like down near Liberty Park where you’re able to just check it out. It’s like this cool little bookstore slash D&D shop slash also a cafe.

Ollie

What?

Cambria

Yeah, so like, yeah, it has really, really cool like individual like drinks, like tea and coffee that they put together. And it’s really, really cool. It’s like a fantastic place to start. If you’re looking for like, a chill place where you can just hang out. We were actually able to interview a couple of the regulars about like their experience. They’ve been with The Legendarium like almost since it opened last year in August. So, it’s a pretty recent pretty new little spot that has like come a long way like so many people are there all the time. So that’s just one really cool spot. But we also learned about like game stores like Game Night Games, Haster games and Oasis games, which Preston and Evan also recommended.

Preston

I know Oasis games is close by and a lot of people go down there for tabletop gaming things.

Cambria

Speaking of those two, like we mentioned before, they’re the president and vice president of the University of Utah’s very own D&D club called Dungeons and Dragons and Stuff.

Preston

Yeah, so we basically think of ourselves as the hub for everything tabletop gaming at the U or tabletop role playing games. We help people get into campaigns and find groups with each other and also run several events throughout the year that help facilitate community and tabletop role playing gaming. Were mostly on the University’s Campus Connect website. That’s the hub for all club stuff at the U and we also are on the Crimson Gaming discord

Cambria

Students here don’t have to go very far at all to like, try it out at the U. And if fantasy isn’t your cup of tea, so to speak. There are also tons of other kinds of RPG — role playing game — modules for like, all sorts of preferences and genres.

Preston

D&D is always a good time. But other systems are also super interesting.

Cambria

What is your favorite of the other hundreds of systems that there are?

Preston

My favorite currently that I’ve tried is Masks: A New Generation. It’s a system which basically, it’s for telling the story of teenage superheroes.

Evan

For instance, there’s a mini-RPG called Honey heist, which is just bears stealing honey.

Preston

I’ll throw in dread as well, which is basically a horror game where if players tried to do anything that could possibly fail, they have to pull a block from a Jenga tower. And basically, the tower represents the dread that the party is facing. And if you knock the tower over, then your character’s dead.

Evan

If you’re looking for horror, Delta Green and Call of Cthulhu are great places to start. You don’t even necessarily need to run like cosmic horror in them. They’re just good, relatively simple to learn, games for playing squishy humans in a world full of very scary things that will kill you dead. To name an indie darling, that is weird and strange, I think more people should try it is Ten Candles, which has a very interesting gimmick that you should play it by candlelight. It’s kind of a depressing game about characters at the end of the world who are about to face their doom. So very like The Road by Cormac McCarthy, or The Mist by Stephen King, something like that. I just had to throw that out there because it represents the weird indie space that I have a deep affection for, even if I don’t play those games very often. It kind of helps show the breadth of variety that there is.

Cambria

So obviously, there’s a ton of stuff for people. But what I really wanted to get into as like our final cool thing that we were exploring is like why? So, everyone and their dog is like playing D&D. What makes it stand out and what makes people stay?

Sword Swoosh

Cael Roberts

So, I think it’s been a good yeah, good outlet for creativity.

Rix from Legendarium

It helps me like, connect to different people, because I don’t have a lot of similar interests as a lot of people. This is one of those things where I’m like, you have something in common with so many people.

Preston

It definitely helps confidence. It helps people feel comfortable in their own skin and help people find out what works for them, basically, I guess,

Shauna from Legendarium

It’s just like a mini world, that no one else really knows.

Evan

So, it’s a lot of fun to see different kinds of people engaging in the same hobby, for different reasons, but still having fun together doing it.

Cael Roberts

I don’t think I realized how much freedom you have in D&D. I think I thought it was a lot more rigid, like a board game type thing.

Cambria

And speaking about that inclusivity the RPG scene really creates like a very, like beautiful and safe environment, particularly for the queer community, like we kind of mentioned earlier. And our interviewees once again, agreed with us.

Evan

So as a queer man, tabletop RPGs were one of the first mediums where I felt like comfortable expressing that side of myself. And not in the sense of, you know, not nonsense, or doing anything inappropriate, but just, you know, the simple act of existing as a queer person in the world. But it is an interesting and safe way to like, try on different identities and explore different, you know, different ways of being and different ways of thinking. And I found that very rewarding. My first, like, quote, unquote, “experience” with dating another man was in actually a masks game, where my character just went on a date. And I was like, I have no idea what I’m doing. I’d never did this in high school. And as a result, when, you know, I went on and did that in real life, it was a lot less scary to me, because I was like, Oh, I’ve had these sorts of conversations before I’ve acted this out.

Rix from Legendarium

It’s been a channel for me to explore my gender identity, which that’s like the main thing that I’ve really discovered through D&D, which is really interesting to me. It was so funny. I was like, No, I really need to get into the queer community more because I’m understanding my identity deeper and deeper, but still don’t have that support. And so, I joined its literally DC queers. I was like good enough. Somebody posted about a D&D game just to gauge interest. And I was like, yeah, those are my people, right? This is also kind of before I really was constantly just being like, Yeah, I’m queer. And those are my people. This is still like, yeah, I don’t know. I think I’m trans but can’t tell. And it’s so funny. So, I sign up to join this club, this group, I had never met a single person in it. I’m so anxious going up to the first session because I’m like, it’s going to be a bunch of 19-year-olds, and I’m not going to know anything that’s going on because they’re going to be so young. And they’re going to be so hip and queer. I’m not going to know any of the terminology, and I show up and we’re all 28, 29, 30, all non-binary in different shades, basically. And it was just like, I came in, and the first five sessions I left like crying of happiness, because like, I’ve never been so like, connected to people so instantly in that way.

Cael Roberts

I also think it’s just really an accepting community.

Cambria

Yeah, so there’s just nothing like it. It’s the community. It’s the inclusivity. The safe space, the creativity. People who are unfamiliar with the game ask all the time, it’s like one of the first things that they ask if you can win D&D, but to me winning means that like, you’re having a good time, and you want to play again.

Thea

And honestly, take that into your day.

Ollie

Seriously

Thea

Yeah, if you’re having a good time, you’re winning. You’re winning.

Ollie

I was playing Catan once and I’m not going to lie to you, I didn’t like it after that.

Cambria

But yeah, so huge thanks to all the people that we were able to interview Preston, Evan, Steph. We were able to talk to Rix and Shauna. Thank you to my bosses who are sitting in this room. Executive producer Thea and producer Elle. Very cool. Very good at the jobs. Also, Ollie, thank you for being here.

Ollie

Thank you for having me today.

Cambria

So dear audience, like tell us what you think!

Ollie

The next episode is going to be about burritos, and we’re going to try a lot of burritos.

Cambria

I’m really excited for that because I think I get to try burritos, right?

Ollie

You do get to try burritos.

Cambria

Anyway, we’ll see you next time. Once again. I’m Cambria.